still can hardly believe that i've discovered how to throw it, especially after i figured it would be unlikely if wilhelm could actually throw one whenever he wanted.

i'm wondering if anyone knows if charlie hough had the corkscrew. for that matter has anyone other than wilhelm thrown a large pct. of spinners?

jj, to me, putting the thumb on one side of the ball with the ring finger supporting the other side and 2 fingertips on top is the best way to get balance. when you consider that the ideal rotation is forward roll, i can't imagine having my thumb under the ball. apparently, it worked well for charlie but i wouldn't recommend it.

one other idiosyncracy about his mechanics was how high his hand was on most of the shots i've seen. usually, you'll see the hand just behind the head like a catcher. charlie had the ball about 2 feet above his head.

i meant october 2005

No firm date set yet beyond Fall of this year. Not sure where you got the Oct. 5th. A number of things have to come together and I probably won't know an official publication date until about Labor Day. As soon as I know, you'll know. The publisher just recently put his Spring lineup on his website.

--Dave C.

Bill

You have mentioned a few times that you believe placing your thumb under the ball will inhibit movement(as opposed to on the side). Can you explain why, or is it just what you have experienced? I mean, wouldn't the same spin, regardless of release technique, result in the same movement?

And Dave, is the release of your book still set for October 05?

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by jj]

Not a bad idea GreenMonster, just one problem: most Newark Bears end up playing with West Coast teams (or of course the lowly KC Royals). Still, I'd take bill over Kevin Brown any day of the week

thanks fellows, just after reading chuck's post, i opened my 2004 baseball america directory and the listing of the spokane indians. some of those early 1970's teams are considered the best minor league teams of alltime. amazing too, how many of the players lasorda managed ended up managing or coaching in the big leagues. dusty baker, charlie hough and bobby valentine come to mind.

monster, i looked up henderson, i realize you may have been giving me the benifit of the doubt but i'm 6 months older.

Bill, if no major league team is smart enough to give you an invite to camp this spring, you should certainly press the Newark Bears for a shot. If Rickey Henerson comes back, you'll be a young man in camp. And Joe Gannon could use a mentor. And if Steinbrenner gets desparate for someone to replace [pick a scenario; they're all likely], you're just a cab ride away.

From "Rob Neyer's Big Book Of Baseball Lineups":

Tommy Lasorda: "I wanted to sign Hoyt Wilhelm to pitch for the Spokane Indians... I believed he could still pitch. I knew he would be a tremendous gate attraction. I thought he would really be able to help Charlie Hough, who was continuing to have problems controlling his own knuckleball. And finally, I liked the idea of managing a player who was older than I was."

Neyer: "So Lasorda signed his old buddy for $2,000 per month. Wilhelm could still pitch, and he did help Hough. In that order. As Hough recalled, "I listened to him and started pitching better than ever. And... when the Dodgers needed a relief pitcher, they called up Wilhelm. I had lost my job to a forty-seven year old man." "

in studying the cards monster sent me, i noticed that hough grips his knuckleball like wakefield, 2 fingers inside the horseshoe. as we know, there is no 'correct' grip but i noticed something about his grip (i think wakefield does this too) that i think may hurt movement. they are putting the thumb under the ball instead of on the side of the ball (wilhelm). i would think using this approach would make it much harder for the ball to come out of the hand cleanly.

could it be that this subtle difference could be why wilhelm's eras were always around 2.00?

i was toward the back of the knuckler lounge yesterday when my cell phone beeped and the screen said i had a new voicemail. a fellow with the texas rangers said my player profile was on his desk and asked me to give him a call back. my heart fluttered just like a good knuckleball.

we talked for about 10 minutes and i mentioned to him that i had heard from the padres earlier in the week. he told me it would be impossible for the rangers to invite me to spring training sight unseen. i got the feeling he was just gathering information and he told me to give him a call back if i had any questions and he said he'd call me if he thought of anything. good week, responses from the boochy and charlie's team. i've got a hunch steinbrenner will be on the horn tommorrow.

could be wakefield not only benifitted from charlie hough's mechanics but i'm thinking charlie's success in texas might have helped him sign with the red sox.

wakefield signed with the red sox on april 30, 1995. kevin kennedy was the manager and was the manager in texas when hough was the mainstay of the pitching staff. no one has ever confirmed this but i'm thinking it was kennedy's suggestion to bring wakefield to boston, knowing how effective a knuckleball pitcher can be. wake made kennedy look pretty good as he started the year 14-1.

by the age of 34, charlie had just 56 wins to his credit. he pitched mainly in relief to that point just like wilhelm. like wilhelm, he didn't get a big league start until his 8th year in the bigs. they both showed immediately that they were very effective starters. wilhelm after the sensational year in 1959 as a starter was sent back to the pen while hough continued to thrive in the starter role averaging 15 wins a year for 7 years. hough finished with 216 wins, 150 after the age of 34.

I almost asked my contact to leave one card out--but I was afraid to pick just one. At least 50 = 49^1 + 49^0.

BaseballLibrary.com says:

quote:

---

Originally signed as a third baseman, Hough learned the knuckler from Los Angeles scout Goldie Hold, with help from Hoyt Wilhelm, Jim Brewer, and Tom Lasorda.

---

monster sent me a u2u telling me he was the fellow who sent me the charlie hough cards. he knows how my mind tends to wander, on my short list i had hough, george bush, knuckdad and tommy lasorda. we all know how sharp greenmonster is but he forgot one thing. as i took a count of the cards, i was approaching 49 and figured that was the number. anyway, i've got an idea for a nice display at the knuckler lounge using all but one.

it was interesting studying the stats and the photos. only one showed the low 3/4's delivery. looks like he had 2 distinct speeds with the slower one being the one he liked to use the most. never knew he got a spot in the bullpen in '73 replacing none other than hoyt wilhelm who had been forced into retirement after the '72 campaign. no doubt, wilhelm shared the 'secret mechanics' with hough and it's pretty amazing to see all the similarities between hough's style and tim wakefield's. same leg kick and follow thru.

again, thanks for making my day greenmonster!

On www.mlb.com Charlie Hough is under the Left Field Perspectives: "Where are you now?" It talks of the knuckleballer who started Florida Marlins first game ever in 1993 and beat all time great orel hershiesher 6-3. it is great props for knuckleballers everywhere

Sean,

Your dad is amazing! If I were a baseball player he would be my first choice to have as an agent. He really knows how to promote. Maybe Mike should become Jose's agent

If Wake did agree to work with you in the offseason I'm sure you would learn a lot from him. I really enjoyed your report on Wake's last outing, I see that he is really varying the speed on his k-balls, ranging from 44mph-70mph. During Wake's amazing 1992 NLCS campaign, he threw his k-balls 45mph, last year he was throwing harder, high 60's to low 70's, I think throwing at different speeds has helped him a lot this year.

As you can tell, I am a big fan of Charlie Hough. People forget how good he really was, his best years were in Texas, where I think he won 17 games one year. In my opinion Charlie did master the knuckler, and I agree he could probablly win in the bigs today. Take care.

PS: Tell Mike that I said hello, and say hi to Wake for me

Tom. Paul Morse told me that he thinks that Charlie is still such a good kballer that he could pitch for a MLB team today and win. That says a lot about how he has come close to perfection. About 1 year ago I was at our local sports bar with my dad and we accidently saw classic sports network and they showed a game where Charlie pitched a 1 hit classic against a pitcher named Witt. Charlie lost 1-0 . Witt threw a no-hitter. Charlie was almost perfect. There has to be something about domes. Wake won again at Tropicana. Wow! My dad said that Wake was awesome. My dad got to say hello to Wake and he gave Wake some news articles about me and asked Wake if he could work with me sometime in the off season. Wake took our phone # and I got to say that if Wake does call that it would really be great.
Sean

Hi everybody! I listened to a good interview with former Knuckleballer Charlie Hough today, Charlie was a teammate of Hoyt Wilhelm in 1971, and credits Hoyt for helping him learn the K-ball. Unlike most of the great k-ballers, Charlie didn't learn to throw the k-ball untill he was about 23y/o, he started as a third baseman, then changed to pitcher, and in the minors he hurt his arm, anyway one of his coaches suggested that he throw the knuckler and the rest is history. Hough won over 200 Big League games in his career, he was asked a question if he ever perfected the knuckler and he said no, he did say that Wilhelm and Niekro perfected the k-ball. In my opinon Hough was close to perfection with his knuckler. Hough also said that his knuckler worked the best in dome stadiums, I think we have heard that from the Niekro's as well, and Wake always seems to pitch well in dome stadiums. Anyway I want say anymore in case you guys want to listen. Go to google and type in Players Alumni Association the first page you will see it, enjoy!